Gay Pride and Religious Prejudice–Prop 8 Rage

chainlinkfenceprotestor

LDS Temple Targeted for Prop 8 Rage Protest in Westwood

Gay and lesbian ‘No on proposition 8′ demonstrators gathered at the LDS Temple in Westwood tonight to protest the will of the people in passing proposition 8, singling out the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints for their support of proposition 8.  The swelling crowd of loud and sometimes riotous protesters spread across Santa Monica Blvd, blocking traffic and forcing the temple to close.

A website established by Proposition 8 opponents used campaign data to specifically track Mormon political contributions to the Yes-on-8 campaign. Opponents estimated that members of the church had given more than $20 million dollars to the effort church officials promoted as crucial for the preservation of the family.

Critics of the website noted that Mormons had been unfairly singled out since the religious affiliations of other political donors were not researched.

Los Angeles interfaith leaders voiced their support for the LDS church this afternoon, saying: “The peaceful faiths, families, educators, activists, and community servants who make up the protect Marriage Coalition are saddened to hear of the continued targeted attacks on the Mormon people during and after the conclusion of this fair and certified election. Like many churches, the family is the anchor of the LDS faith and it is no surprise that its members in California joined other faiths in giving everything they had to Proposition 8.”

Mormon church spokesman Keith Atkinson said individual members were encouraged to support proposition 8, but the church made no institutional donations.

Police Department spokeswoman April Harding estimated that about 1,000 people came to the Westwood protest.  Some estimates were over 2,000 as the evening wore on.  Sign-waving demonstrators spilled into the lanes of Santa Monica Boulevard, bringing rush hour traffic to a near halt.

Threats to the temple abounded online as angry activists advocated burning it to the ground.  One observer who was filming the event, talks about overhearing plans to burn the temple as she films protesters climbing the walls and waving their arms from high atop the temple property.  The temple here in Westwood is the largest LDS Temple in all of California, second only to the Great Salt Lake Temple in size.  Police were able to keep tight control of the event which had no permit or permission from the city for a demonstration.  Temple property was trashed and defaced along the outside wall, but the main structure was protected.  Seven arrests were made during the course of the event.

los_angeles_temple

Los Angeles LDS Temple: painting by Kendall Davenport

LDS Church Responds to Same-Sex
Marriage Votes


Since Proposition 8 was placed on the ballot in June of this year, the citizens of California have considered the arguments for and against same-sex marriage. After extensive debate between those of different persuasions, voters have chosen to amend the California State Constitution to state that marriage should be between a man and a woman.

Voters in Arizona and Florida took the same course and amended their constitutions to establish that marriage will continue to be between a man and a woman.

Such an emotionally charged issue concerning the most personal and cherished aspects of life — family, identity, intimacy and equality — stirs fervent and deep feelings.

Most likely, the election results for these constitutional amendments will not mean an end to the debate over same-sex marriage in this country.

We hope that now and in the future all parties involved in this issue will be well informed and act in a spirit of mutual respect and civility toward those with a different position.   No one on any side of the question should be vilified, intimidated, harassed or subject to erroneous information.

It is important to understand that this issue for the Church has always been about the sacred and divine institution of marriage — a union between a man and a woman.

Allegations of bigotry or persecution made against the Church were and are simply wrong.  The Church’s opposition to same-sex marriage neither constitutes nor condones any kind of hostility toward gays and lesbians.  Even more, the Church does not object to rights for same-sex couples regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights, so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the traditional family or the constitutional rights of churches.

Some, however, have mistakenly asserted that churches should not ever be involved in politics when moral issues are involved.  In fact, churches and religious organizations are well within their constitutional rights to speak out and be engaged in the many moral and ethical problems facing society.  While the Church does not endorse candidates or platforms, it does reserve the right to speak out on important issues.

Channel 4 News Coverage–The Voice of the People

Seven people were arrested by police.protester_churchh8protester_cultflippin_protesterprotester-flashbyprotester_hateprotester-pointtempledefacedprotester-signsprotester-policeprotester-police2lds_epithetsprotester-racingcarprotestersonthewallprotests-arrests

37 Comments

  1. CatzPajamas said,

    November 7, 2008 at 10:35 am

    This is actually very funny. The gays really think they’re ruffling our feathers. I’ve got news for them. We are used to people making ridiculous assumptions about us. We’ve heard all the lies spread about us in the past. we’re used to the abuse. we’re used to not being liked. persecution is nothing new.

    we should disagree with those who are immoral, who seek to undermine society and the sanctity of marriage. What the gays refuse to acknowledge is that they already have their own version of marriage, it’s called a domestic partnership. it comes with every legal right that marriage has. They don’t want to get married, they want to tear down our way of life, our beliefs, and force us to accept gays into our religion. they want to be told they are moral. they want to be told they are normal. that will never happen. God never changes, and we will always agree with his principles & laws.

    these tantrums outside our temples will pass, they’re just playing to the media, who of course, eats it right up. We’ve put up with rioters for hundreds of years. Hey, I have an idea, should I just send them the address of a place they can get some tar & feathers?

  2. beetlebabee said,

    November 7, 2008 at 10:47 am

    yeah, the video about the protesters on the temple grounds was pretty creepy. The lady says, Hm, I wonder if those are the guys who are going to torch the place. I heard fire threats. That’s just creepy. Reminds me of Missouri.

  3. Laura said,

    November 7, 2008 at 12:43 pm

    Anybody remember the revelation about the separation of the wheat from the tares in the latter days. Here we go! I am glad Ahnold said his piece for democracy at least.

    Keep up the good work, beetlebabee. We need to keep the fight going!

  4. beetlebabee said,

    November 7, 2008 at 1:08 pm

    Unfortunately, I don’t think there is a choice, we have to keep fighting. Watching these faces…you can see they’re not going to rest.

  5. beetlebabee said,

    November 7, 2008 at 4:17 pm

    “You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life.”

    – Winston Churchill

  6. reality said,

    November 7, 2008 at 6:31 pm

    This is only gong to get worse, maybe the Church should read it’s own Doctrine eh?

    We do not believe it just to amingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied.(Doctrine and Covenants 134:9)

  7. lahona said,

    November 7, 2008 at 8:14 pm

    Laura….the interesting thing about the whole wheat from the tares, is that according to scriptures, it will start in the Lords house…meaning his church. I think we are seeing that separation beginning to happen as a few members have chosen to reject the prophets counsel on this issue.

  8. beetlebabee said,

    November 8, 2008 at 1:24 pm

    Good Morning,

    The election is over and all of us who worked tirelessly on prop 8
    got the victory we desired.

    This is in no small measure because of my beautiful neighbors who are
    members of the Mormon Church.

    I was so pleased to show up on Saturday at Fiore Field and see all of
    the cheerful, positive faces that greeted me even though it was
    pouring rain. I was a little nervous when I said I would come down
    and help for fear of having to confront the angry No on 8 crowd, but
    that dissipated instantly once I arrived. I ended up working with two
    more lovely Mormon women and had a nice time cruising Thousand Oaks
    for our common cause as we set out to hang door reminders to prompt
    the Yes crowd to vote.

    I was particularly sad to see the photo on the front page of the LA
    Times today showing a rabid young man, with teeth bared, shaking the
    chain link fence in fury in front of the Mormon temple in Westwood.
    Behind him are protesters with signs saying “love not H8″. Kind of
    ironic is it not? I guess they are unaware of the millions who
    voted yes who are not Mormon.

    So if you are Mormon, please know that your Presbyterian neighbor
    here in Thousand Oaks thinks the world of you all and will forever be
    grateful to you for what you helped us do here.

    If you are not Mormon, be sure to thank one today.

    May God bless you richly!

    Very Sincerely,

    Jennifer Weir
    Thousand Oaks

  9. Fr. J. said,

    November 9, 2008 at 1:42 pm

    I’m a Catholic and am very pleased that the Mormon church has gotten involved on this issue. It is heartening to see the LDS community get involved in the political sphere. My only disappointment is that the LDS community has never mobilized in the same way against abortion. We committed Catholics cannot do it alone. The Evangelicals are unreliable as activists. Can we in the future count on the LDS church as allies for life? I hope so.

  10. Fr. J. said,

    November 9, 2008 at 1:44 pm

    Is this the first time that Mormons have organized politically on this scale? If so, congratulations!

  11. Sockpuppet said,

    November 9, 2008 at 2:56 pm

    Reality –

    The scripture you’ve quoted is simply a reiteration of the establishment clause in the Constitution, namely that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” Nowhere in that verse is the suggestion given that Latter-Day Saints should not vote according to religious principles.

    Additionally, as mentioned in the statement by the Church quoted above, “the Church does not object to rights for same-sex couples regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights.” These rights are already guaranteed to couples of any sexual orientation under California Family Code section 297.5. In no way did the passage of Proposition 8 remove those rights.

    I think the thing to remember here is that members of the Church make a clear distinction between persons and actions. We love all of God’s children as our brothers and sisters, but we do not love their sins and will continue to act to protect moral values and principles using all of the means available to us.

  12. Mike said,

    November 9, 2008 at 4:21 pm

    Remember that Ghandi, the man who overthrew an entire empire, said that you must be the change you wish to see in the world. Anti-prop 8 Protestors, you must be the tolerance you wish to see in the world.

  13. beetlebabee said,

    November 9, 2008 at 5:54 pm

    Fr. J, I’ve wondered why we don’t get involved in the pro life movement more. I think it is a worthwhile cause. I always wave at the people I see standing in front of the abortion clinic here in town. They always look so sad and alone, like they’re surprised to see someone waving at them.

  14. I Would Never Vote To Take Rights From You said,

    November 9, 2008 at 7:42 pm

    CatzPajamas said : “What the gays refuse to acknowledge is that they already have their own version of marriage, it’s called a domestic partnership. it comes with every legal right that marriage has. They don’t want to get married, they want to tear down our way of life, our beliefs, and force us to accept gays into our religion.”

    I promise you that we don’t want to tear down your way of life or join your church. All we wanted was to build our own families. We are for the most part a very tolerant people with a live and let live attitude. We understand that you see our lives as tragic and sinful and up until now we have respected your opinions. Under California Law Churches were already allowed to turn away same sex marriages and that was respected too, we understand that we are not welcome.

    A Domestic Partnership is not at all the same as a marriage, you can look it up, at least you should before you make misleading statements. If they were the same this fight probably wouldn’t be happening.

    The hardest thing to take is lies and it is my understanding that LDS members pride themselves on honesty with their fellowmen. It’s an honorable attribute but it looks like your leaders have some explaining to do because they lied to you.

    Prop 8 was not about education, Religion or children. It was about fundamental rights. I find it shameful that as a group of people that have been subjected to intolerance for years it was so easy for you to become so hateful.

    I stood outside an LDS Temple today and was taken aback by how beautiful it was, it truly looks like a special, loving place. But being on the receiving end of venom I now know better.

    You can call me immoral, call me an abomination and hate me all you want. I don’t hate you, I’m just hurt.

  15. Lita R. said,

    November 10, 2008 at 8:19 am

    I saw this letter on another thread, thought you’d be interested in the sentiment:

    Proposition 8 is now a part of the California constitution!

    That is probably the best news from an otherwise difficult election for conservatives and Republicans. In very large part, we Evangelicals must thank our Mormon cousins for that fact. They, along with our Catholic brethren, were better organized than us and that provided a base from which we could ALL work together to get this job done. What more, as we have chronicled here, Mormons took the brunt of the abuse, derision, and even threats of physical harm that came with this effort.

    And like us, they have given thanks to the Almighty that is ultimately in control, even if their understanding of that Almighty is a bit diffrent than ours.
    I cannot help but wonder how much more thankful we ALL might be today if we had been more willing to embrace these religious cousins a few months ago – but alas, politics is always about governing today and looking forward to the next election.

    Said John Mark Reynolds:
    In the battle for the family, however, traditional Christians have no better friends than the Mormon faithful. It would be wrong if that support were taken for granted. We are intolerant of the false attacks on Mormon faith and family. We stand with our Mormon friends in their right to express their views on the public square. We celebrate the areas, such as family values, where we agree.

    A heart felt thank you may not win points from other friends who demand one hundred percent agreement from their allies, but it is the decent and proper thing to do.

    Thank you to our Mormon friends and allies!

    Hard to do better than that. The “Ruth Youth” ministry proclaimed yesterday “International Mormon Appreciation Day.” Very appropriate, yet still inadequate.

    In addition to our thanks, Mormons deserve our protection. They have been oppressed in ways during the Prop 8 campaign that this nation has not seen since the 1960’s and the civil rights movement. The rhetoric has been deplorable, but moreover. we have seen instances of vandalism, property destruction, and some leaders in the fight currently find themselves with armed protection because of the threats made against them and their families.
    Our nation will not and cannot tolerate this sort of behavior – it is incumbent on all of us to stand against it, and the best way to do that is to stand between the Mormons and the forces that would perpetrate such evil.

    Now I am sure the Mormons can, and probably want, to take care of themselves, but as a Christian, it is my duty to protect the innocent and free the oppressed. To turn a blind eye in this circumstance is not only ungracious, it is simply unChristian.
    Make all the theological distinctions you want, but in the political arena we are yoked with the Mormons (he said borrowing some religious imagery) and it is darn well time we started acting like it.

    Absolutely, positively thank the Mormons – but don’t stop there. Stand up and be counted against the evil that has been perpetrated towards them in this campaign.

    As Christians we can do no less.

  16. beetlebabee said,

    November 10, 2008 at 8:29 am

    SACRAMENTO, Calif., Nov 07, 2008 (BUSINESS WIRE) — The following statement was released today by Bishop William Weigand, head of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Sacramento and former Bishop of Salt Lake City, in response to attacks on the Mormon Church for supporting California’s Proposition 8, defending the traditional definition of marriage:
    “Catholics stand in solidarity with our Mormon brothers and sisters in support of traditional marriage–the union of one man and one woman–that has been the major building block of Western Civilization for millennia.

    “The ProtectMarriage coalition, which led the successful campaign to pass Proposition 8, was an historic alliance of people from every faith and ethnicity. LDS were included–but so were Catholics and Jews, Evangelicals and Orthodox, African-Americans and Latinos, Asians and Anglos.
    “Bigoted attacks on Mormons for the part they played in our coalition are shameful and ignore the reality that Mormon voters were only a small part of the groundswell that supported Proposition 8.

    “As the former bishop of the Diocese of Salt Lake City, I can attest to the fact that followers of the Mormon faith are a good and generous people with a long history of commitment to family and giving to community causes.
    “I personally decry the bigotry recently exhibited towards the members of the Church of the Latter Day Saints–coming from the opponents of Proposition 8, who ironically, have called those of us supporting traditional marriage intolerant.

    “I call upon the supporters of same-sex marriage to live by their own words–and to refrain from discrimination against religion and to exercise tolerance for those who differ from them. I call upon them to accept the will of the people of California in the passage of Proposition 8.”

  17. Jared said,

    November 10, 2008 at 9:21 am

    I gotta jet to class, but just a few things…

    First off, thanks for your comment on my blog, I originally wasn’t going to post about it until one of my friends really got on my case for being a “hypocrite” (in his language) for being his friend and yet not supporting him in his same-sex relationship status. That and he was beefed that I was a member of the Church, go figure.

    One thing I noticed (which I think was mentioned) was that this issue was not only decisive in California, but among members of the Church themselves. It has really helped define the line between those who follow the Prophet’s guidance at all times (we don’t follow the Prophet because we are blind, we follow him because we can see) and those who only fall into line with his words when it is convenient or already follows one’s line of previous thinking.

    That and especially after what happened to Mitt Romney during the election primaries it’s showing a lot of people around the country how the LDS Church is a lot more conservative than they anticipated and how it is NOT a cult. It’s definitely great to see a lot of religious leaders coming out to support the Church and make it understood that there are others out there who support family values as they were intended.

    Great blog, and fantastic pictures! I am definitely adding it to my list.

    Thanks again!

  18. beetlebabee said,

    November 12, 2008 at 11:16 am

    Sending you information on some of the happenings last night at the LA
    Temple. Ben xxxx, was up there. Scarey times.

    From: Ben xxxxxxxxx
    Subject: L.A. Temple
    As additional information for those who missed the news, Mormons have
    been targeted by the gay community in California as having been the main
    impetus behind the passing of Proposition 8, banning same-sex marriage
    in the state. Although the population of the state voted on the passing
    of the constitutional amendment, I will proudly agree that most of
    footwork was carried out by us. It’s funny that our opposition knows
    where the credit is due, but that’s another topic for another day. In
    light of the gay community’s frustration in the passing of the
    proposition, our temple came under attack. I was at the Los Angeles
    Temple assisting in the security efforts and it was quite an experience.
    Our temple is safe and no damage was done on the grounds. It was a sight
    I never expected to see. At one point we had let in about 20 police
    vehicles through the gates because they were afraid their vehicles would
    be damaged as civilian cars were being vandalized. I removed the Utah
    plates from my truck just so I could drive through the mess and park
    blocks away. My roommate and I traveled on foot after we had changed out
    of our dress shirts and ties so as not to be targeted.

    Two full squads of LAPD in riot gear set up their base inside the temple
    grounds while SWAT vehicles and hundreds of officers followed the crowds
    run up Santa Monica and Wilshire Boulevards. I’ve heard that the crowd
    was estimated to be over 2,500. When I arrived, all of the gates were
    shut and a small group of members had to remain outside the grounds as
    the direction was to turn away others who had come to assist. After
    about a half an hour two sister missionaries ran up the drive to the
    East gate. I would have made more jokes with them, asking them trivia
    questions to prove they were LDS before opening the gate, but they were
    obviously nervous and had left on their name tags as they wandered the
    streets. When the crowd turned back towards the temple from West
    Hollywood, we opened the gate to those members still outside so they
    would not be trapped in the crowd. The officers inside the temple
    grounds made a line on the front lawn by the fence. At one point, with 7
    news and police helicopters overhead, the crowd began to climb the fence
    and it looked like there was going to be a lot of trouble. We had it
    seemed a good forth of a Polynesian ward there so it could have gotten
    very interesting very fast.

    With lines of motorcycle cops with sirens wailing up and down the street
    with the latest outbreak, helicopters continually circling with
    spotlights cutting through the sky, and the crowd roaring being led my
    megaphones shouting every synonym they could think of that went along
    with “evil”…it almost seemed like the very end was at hand. My dad
    called me every few minutes to give me updates from live news through
    the Internet because we did not have TVs and the police did not even
    seem to be informed on the movement of the crowd up and down the
    streets. I relayed these updates directly to the head of temple security
    so we could anticipate when to be ready. My friend and I joked about
    what would happen if we were caught in the middle of the crowd rushing
    up the lawn. We decided that because we were still single without much
    luck in finding wives, it might be to our advantage to go without a
    fight and die as a martyrs. If I remember correctly, that’s a free
    ticket to the Celestial kingdom and I’m sure there’s plenty of girls
    there to chose from without the dramas of dating.

    While I was there, I was not aware of anyone actually breaching the
    fence, but we were asked to move far across the parking lot as they were
    anticipating the need to shoot tear gas canisters. I never thought I
    would see the day when police officers would sit perched on the spire of
    our temple as lookouts. All of this happened at about 7:30 pm. It should
    be remembered that most likely many of the law enforcement were not in
    favor of our stance on Proposition 8, but nevertheless, the men and
    women were there doing their duty and protecting our property. For that
    we are grateful. And yes, there was an incident with some of our members
    who had gone to remove the protest signs from the front fence. One of
    the protesters did initiate physical contact with one of our sisters so
    the details are uncertain as to whether the response was fully
    justified. The lesson to be learned is that it’s important to anticipate
    and avoid such confrontational situations. Remember the world is
    watching our reaction and the media is everywhere. In the end, when we
    keep our cool, the video footage speaks the truth regarding which side
    is really intolerant and appears hateful when we simply do not respond
    or do so in a loving and controlled manner.

    In all the commotion, I had the chance to sit alone by the side of one
    of the fountains and take in all that was happening. It may seem strange
    to say, but despite the adrenaline rushing in my blood ready for the
    next incident or next bit of news from my dad; I felt a tremendous
    peace. It came over me in a wave as I looked up at the spire topped with
    Angel Moroni. I can testify that I felt the presence of others
    protecting the temple tonight..those we could not physically see. I
    would even go as far to say that I felt the presence of someone
    personally related to me who was there for my safety. We were not alone.
    We were protected and our Father in Heaven is mindful of our efforts and
    willingness to withstand persecution. As I later read a quote from
    Brigham Young, it made more sense why this did not have to be a fearful
    experience- exciting yes, in a urgency sense, but very clarifying as we
    were able to glimpse into things as the really are, truth as is really
    exists, the adversary’s war as it really is raging. I wish everyone of
    you reading this could have been there just to be reminded as I was how
    real this war is. The great sadness is that so many of our brothers and
    sisters are unknowing participants, manipulated and deceived by the
    grand schemer of it all. The issues may be presented as complex, but the
    adversary’s agenda was as clear as day. Be prepared friends and family,
    it’s bound to get much worse before it gets better, but take council
    from a prophet:

    “You that have not passed thro’ the trials and persecutions, and
    drivings with this people from the beginning, but have only read them,
    or heard some of them related, may think how awful they were to endure,
    and wonder that the saints survived them at all.-The thought of it makes
    your heart sink within you, your brain reel, and your body tremble, and
    you are ready to exclaim, ‘I could not have endured it.’ I have been in
    the heat of it, and never felt better in all my life; I never felt the
    peace and power of the Almighty more copiously poured upon me than in
    the keenest part of our trials. They appeared nothing to me.” ( Deseret
    News Weekly, 24 Aug. 1854, 83). (L. Aldin Porter, “‘But We Heeded Them
    Not’,” Ensign, Aug 1998, 6) -Brigham Young

    -Ben

  19. Fire Mike said,

    November 12, 2008 at 11:29 am

    Beetlebabee – I just read your post on another blog – “It’s not about Inclusion. It’s about replacement,” and I was disturbed by a number of the ideas you put forth. The first is your claim that our laws are “based on the basic principles of the Ten Commandments . . . handed down from heaven for the stability of man.” Secondly, you further claim that, for those who don’t hold these religious beliefs, “morality doesn’t matter, that religious values are passé. There is no morality but the morality of convenience.” There are two significant problems with your assumptions here.
    First, our laws are not “handed down from heaven.” Not even in principle. The Constitution of the United States relies solely on the principles expressed by the framers, and is completely devoid of any reference to a deity or supernatural being. The purpose of our Constitution is very clear: “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.” No god, no holy books, no divine inspiration at all. Simply the belief that people ought to govern themselves, and not be subject to the whims of any king; and that people working together provide the best hope for self-governance. Notice the use of “common defence,” and “general Welfare.” These are people-driven principles, based in the belief in human dignity and equality. They are not religiously inspired.

    Second, you claim that anyone who doesn’t hold your belief that moral principles are “handed down from heaven” must believe, “that morality doesn’t matter.” Nothing could be further from the truth. Morality does matter. Ethical principles matter. The way we treat other people matters. And it is this belief in the ethical treatment of all people that causes us to oppose attempts to discriminate against the few, the unpopular, the marginalized. It is immoral to deny someone equal treatment under the law because some “holy book” says we should. Morals are not some dead, set-in-stone list of “do’s” and “don’ts” in a book. Morals are alive in the way we treat other human beings, in our ability to stand up in the face of injustice and fight back, and in our capacity to see that each of us has inherent value and is deserving of fairness and equality.

    When I read the arguments that religious folks put forward encouraging discrimination against my family, my friends and members of my community, my first emotional response is usually anger – followed swiftly by righteous indignation. But after a few minutes, those pass. And I am left with sorrow, and a faint trace of pity, because until you are ready to let go of your illusions about the morality of “God’s Word,” and turn instead to the still, quiet voice within yourself – until you are able to think for yourself, and trust your own conscience – you will never fulfill your potential to be a truly free, rational, moral being. Morality is so much more than words in an old book. It is alive and breathing and you have a chance to be an active participant in it whenever you encounter another person.

    So, Beetlebabee, the choice is yours. You can choose to seek morality in the superstitions of days gone by. Or you can choose to think for yourself, and base your morals on what, deep down, I think you already know to be right: the dignity, fairness and equality that inspired our founding fathers, and the empathy and love you can feel for others, if you give yourself the chance. Come on, try it. You’ll like it.

  20. beetlebabee said,

    November 12, 2008 at 11:37 am

    Actually Fire Mike, my information comes from not only a moral perspective, but also a factual one. Attacking the bible as a lone leaf whistling in the wind isn’t going to cut it here. God is a god of truth, and it is everywhere. I would recommend this site to you if you are truly interesting in scratching the surface of the true issues on gay marriage:

    http://troysmsxp.blogspot.com/2008/10/off-topic-but-important-proposition-8.html

  21. Fire Mike said,

    November 12, 2008 at 3:05 pm

    Beetlebabee – Just a couple points: First, I never “attacked” your Bible. I don’t know why religious folks so often claim to be “attacked,” or why you have such an affinity for the title of ‘martyr’. If you make a claim that is clearly not based in fact (such as “moral principles are handed down from heaven”) and someone points out your factual error, that is not an attack. It is merely setting the record straight. If you want to make claims about things in the real world, you ought to be prepared to support those claims with evidence. Which brings me to my second point: Why would you claim that for non-religious people “morality doesn’t matter”? This is demonstrably untrue, yet you spout this nonsense as if you actually believe it. Do you really believe that, or were you just being hyperbolic?

  22. beetlebabee said,

    November 12, 2008 at 4:17 pm

    “I don’t know why religious folks so often claim to be “attacked,” or why you have such an affinity for the title of ‘martyr’.”

    Attacked….hm. This comment from a page where supporters of proposition 8 and traditional marriage are actually physically being attacked and you want to argue that it’s a figment of the imagination? Interesting view. Go back and read the comment in context. It’s not meant as fact, it’s meant as generality.

  23. Fire Mike said,

    November 12, 2008 at 5:33 pm

    Look, Beet. You claimed I attacked your bible, remember? “Attacking the bible as a lone leaf whistling in the wind isn’t going to cut it here.” I simply pointed out that clarification is not an attack, and inquired why religious people so often interpret things that way. I’m still waiting for an answer to that question, as well as the second (and, to my mind, more important) question: Why would you claim that for non-religious people “morality doesn’t matter”?

  24. beetlebabee said,

    November 12, 2008 at 5:44 pm

    If you want to talk about that post, move your conversation there. I’d be happy to clean your clock. That would be a figurative remark…. ;-)

  25. Fire Mike said,

    November 12, 2008 at 5:51 pm

    Oh, I get it. Move the conversation to the blog of a suburban housewife, where none of your regular posters will have the chance to see you “clean my clock.” Right. Why can’t you just answer the questions? My clock awaits cleaning . . .

  26. beetlebabee said,

    November 12, 2008 at 6:56 pm

    Mike, the awesome post you’re referring to is from a story called “It’s Not About Inclusion, It’s About Replacement” and originated here:

    http://beetlebabee.wordpress.com/2008/10/22/its-not-about-inclusion/

    Shout out to anyone in the room who wants to see Mike’s clock cleaned, you’re invited…..We’re taking it outside!!

  27. November 13, 2008 at 7:40 am

    [...] The burgeoning physical culture war over gay marriage, especially in California (as evinced by a rowdy protest that almost looked like a riot at the LDS church’s Los Angeles temple and an older Christian woman being savagely harrassed in Palm Springs), is sobering and [...]

  28. { Lisa } said,

    November 13, 2008 at 11:09 am

    It’s funny to me that all those gays are talking about us hating them and look at all the pictures of them shooting the finger, telling mormons to go to hell, all their signs of hatefullness. Who is showing hate really?

  29. { Lisa } said,

    November 13, 2008 at 2:31 pm

    Ps. Firemike,

    you speak of morals being alive in blah blah blah well I invite you to look at the definition of morals:

    1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.
    2. expressing or conveying truths or counsel as to right conduct, as a speaker or a literary work; moralizing: a moral novel.
    3. founded on the fundamental principles of right conduct rather than on legalities, enactment, or custom: moral obligations.
    4. capable of conforming to the rules of right conduct: a moral being.
    5. conforming to the rules of right conduct (opposed to immoral ): a moral man.
    6. virtuous in sexual matters; chaste.

    pay especially close attention to the last one… God says what is wrong and right, not man. His word says that a man shall not lie with a man as he would lie with a woman. This is detestable in Gods eyes and these people have their place in hell.

    argue all you like. you cannot argue with God… But I dare you to try:)

  30. Kristy said,

    November 26, 2008 at 3:19 pm

    hello! It has taken me a while to write a comment on your blog. I want to thankyou for commenting on mine, and since writing the post I did on homosexuality, my views have changed quite alot. I have been reading your blog since you’ve commented on mine. I’ve subscribed and I’m learning so much and I feel like I’m making more informed decisions. Thankyou for all you do with this website and all you provide your readers with. I’m now seeing that homosexuality really will affect the whole idea of what a family is. Your post where you copied that essay from the lady who didn’t really have an opinion one way or another, but could obviously see that allowing homosexual unions is going to forever change (and damage) our whole institution of family and marriage as we see it, just like divorce has.

    anywho, i’ve been a silent reader for some time now. :) But I hope to change that!

    Once again, thanks for commenting on my page!

    -Kristy

  31. Julie said,

    December 5, 2008 at 9:10 pm

    Beetle, Thanks for commenting on my blog. It is shocking how you’ve been attacked, and even singled out for it. I’ve seen other videos where a Christian group was praying and were physically assaulted, even sexually, while peacefully singing together in a small group. And yet, as some of our opponents claim here, “You’re not being attacked.”

    The evidence on film proves such a comment completely…in denial of the obvious.

    You are being attacked, and we as Catholics have been attacked on this issue for a very long time. Catholic Adoption agencies have closed their doors when the law tried to force them to place children wth same-sex couples.

    Thank you for speaking up in defense of the family. We all definitely have to work together on this, and also to end abortion. These issues will cause the complete destruction of our entire society; it’s already happening.

  32. beetlebabee said,

    December 6, 2008 at 2:09 am

    Hi Julie, I saw that video and could hardly believe it! I lived in Massachusetts when they had to close the Catholic Charities. At the time, we were trying to get a steeple built on one of our temples and were being sued for it. The Catholics came to our aid with letters and support that was well appreciated. I have a great love for the good people of the Catholic faith.

    I really do think it’s one of the most inspiring things that has come from the division over same sex marriage in our country, it’s forcing all of us to choose, and it’s easier to see who our friends really are.

  33. Julie said,

    December 6, 2008 at 8:37 pm

    It goes to show how God brings great good out of great evil. A book I read this semester in class discussed this very thing. St. Catherine of Siena wrote about how even the most evil glorifies God, for it is through evil that we all obtain virtues. If we did not experience this, we would not learn real charity. We would not learn patience, we would not obtain fortitude. And so, even with this battle for the family, we are all being sanctified, and God is being glorified. I guess one way is what we’re observing; people of different faiths coming together as a united front.

    I’m so glad to hear of the Catholics there coming to your aid. There’s a thing I read some time ago, it’s been all over. Something about how “they” came for x group, but “I wasn’t part of x group so I said nothing” And then they came for y group, but I wasn’t part of y group but said nothing. And on and on…finally they came for my group, and there was no one left to speak for me…. Sound familiar? It makes a good point, that we have to be willing to speak up for each other in the preservation of our freedoms.

    As scary as it is watching our religious freedoms being stripped away, we still have it much better here in the US than in many other places. I have a friend (also Catholic) who grew up in Saudi Arabia. She received the Sacraments in her home, in hiding, and they could all have been arrested or killed for doing so. Red China…what freedom?

    It stands to reason that we should be allowed, all of us, to continue the free practice of our faith. The Constitution does not say “only if the majority agrees with x religion”. Unfortunately, that’s how it’s being interpreted, only it’s the minority that has to apparently make the rules these days.

    * sigh *

    Sorry for the long ramble. God bless!

  34. beetlebabee said,

    December 6, 2008 at 8:57 pm

    Ramble on any day my friend. Rambles of that quality are always welcome.

    Isn’t it amazing that through the endless cycles of history, human nature looks back and says, this would never happen and while they’re looking back feeling superior, actions are being set in motion to repeat again the same cycles.

    In some ways, by the time you see the problem clearly, it’s so widespread it’s exceedingly difficult to reverse. I don’t know if you’ve seen the post I put up yesterday on Demographic Winter, but seeing that movie trailer really hit home for me just how close to the edge society has gotten.

    Human nature, can you fight it successfully on more than a one on one basis? Perhaps not, but we should still try, I think because it matters for each soul you touch. Like the story of tossing starfish back into the ocean. You can’t stop the millions from suffering, but you can help the one, and for that one, it’s all the difference in the world.

  35. February 4, 2009 at 1:36 pm

    [...] Beetle Blogger: Gay Pride and Prejudice– Hate Continues [...]

  36. Dave Crea said,

    February 4, 2009 at 8:57 pm

    Beetle Blogger,
    I read your blog everyday. It keeps me up-to-date on what is going on and how to continue to protect our religious freedoms. The mainstream media has given in to the gay activists. Thanks for standing up for religious freedom and what is true and right.

  37. beetlebabee said,

    February 4, 2009 at 9:37 pm

    Thanks Dave Crea! You made my day. Thanks for commenting. The commenters on this site have so much good insight and give so much feedback. It’s a pleasure to have a society of people here we can discuss things with. The issues of family and the questions of morality being asked in this country right now amaze me. Things we took for granted once are being questioned. Sometimes that’s good, but it’s not always good. We’ve got to stand up and be part of the conversation or the ones who are loudest will get their way by fiat.


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